Animal Rights Atheist Talks Morality | Feedback Friday!

Amanda stopped by for a little back and forth about morality. It turns out she is an atheist, a believer in Evolution, and in favor of killing babies. You can imagine how persuasive she was. But read it for yourself:

Atheism and religions have nothing to do with morality.
Morality is something we conceptualized and live by, religious or not.

I replied:

So, you think morality is a self inflicted delusion? And yet you feel justified in condemning people for killing and eating animals? Aren’t you saying, “MY Imagination is RIGHT and you should live according to MY pretend world!”? I feel you are dodging the issue and not addressing it. Please try explaining your position in a full paragraph so I can understand it instead of in these emotional bumper stickers. You aren’t communicating anything of substance here, and I really would like to understand your worldview because, in all honesty, right now I simply do not.

To my surprise and delight she actually tried to explain herself:

People have conceptualized morality for millions of years and as we have evolved our ideas of morality have evolved with us.
Different societies evolve at different paces, which is why the laws are different in different countries.
People vote on laws based on their own concept of morality, which the general public agrees on and the law continues to be updated over time to reflect this.

Greetings again Amanda, thanks for trying to answer my questions.
I do need to delve further though-

1. Even accepting evolution, which I do not, the human race is only one or two hundred thousand years old. How do you propose that we “have conceptualized morality for millions of years” when we have not EXISTED for millions of years?

2. If morals “evolve” then they change. This means they are not objective, but exist only for a while and then become something else. So why then do you think it Morally wrong to kill and eat animals, or to treat them cruelly, or anything else, when your own morality is merely a fleeting and unpopular piece of a constantly changing ethic?

Why is YOUR morality right when not only do others exist, but ALL morality is evolving? Even if EVERYONE accepted YOUR morality today, in the future they would all believe something totally different, if you are right. If everyone accepted your morals and became kind to animals tomorrow, but over time our children and grandchildren grew to love causing animals pain merely for sport, would they be moving away from TRUE goodness, or merely evolving a new “goodness”?

3. If laws determine what is good, then you would agree that owning black people was “good” a hundred and fifty years ago. And of course, killing and eating animals is legal in every country on earth with few exceptions. And in Islamic nations, the law treats women as second class citizens who, in some places, are not allowed to leave the house without the permission of father or husband, and are not allowed to legally own property, and if they are raped, they- the women victims- are punished under those laws. Do you agree that these practices are all “good” because they are supported by legislation and enforced by governments? If your grandchildren passed laws making it legal to cause animals pain for sport, would this be “Good”?

Photo by Mike on

I think if you really consider all of the facts, you will see that some things- rape, murder, slavery- are actually evil and bad no matter what laws or opinions support them. And some things- kindness, generosity, freedom- are really good no matter what laws go against them. I think you will see that this is a fact of the universe which you know firsthand, and would agree too unless you are debating some matter of ethics or policy.

But given the fact of real objective good and evil, you must also see that evolution and atheism offer no basis for their existence. REAL morality cannot evolve, or it is not real morality. Rape and murder do not BECOME evil over time and cannot become GOOD over time, just as kindness and compassion did not become good over time and cannot become gradually more and more evil over time. God has given us a sense of goodness because we are made in his image. Without God, there is no GOOD, just as in a universe with no light there is no YELLOW or BLUE.

God commands us to care for his creation- meaning to be kind to our animals and care for the environment. Evolution does not. Survival of the fittest does not command us to be kind to puppies. It tells us to kill them before they can kill us.

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