On the article Why Atheism and Parenting Conflict Tony Stark said: Do you actually believe the moronic drivel that comes out of your mouth?
To which I replied: What? No, of course not. I can’t imagine ANYONE believing this nonsense.
On the same article, Atheist Jr. said, America was NOT founded as a Christian nation. It was founded as a secular nation.
And amazingly this was his entire comment. I say “amazingly,” not because it’s a surprise, as a thousand atheists before Jr here have done the exact same thing, but because I am always amazed that they bother. I mean, he tosses off this drive-by comment where in he asserts something to the contrary of my stated position, and then POOF he’s gone. He makes no attempt to defend his position with any facts or reason. So, either he thinks that I am SO ASTOUNDINGLY stupid that I will read an unsubstantiated blanket assertion like this and say, “Oh no! I’m wrong!” or he thinks that I am completely unaware that there are other opinions in the world, and he just wanted to drive by and toss his out the window at me without slowing down.
Atheist friends, listen closely- I ALREADY KNOW. You can stop leaving me comments that merely state a contrary position as if I have never heard them. I have heard them. Thank you.
But Jr here had a little learning to do, so I decided this was a PERFECT opportunity to take a deep dive into REAL AMERICAN HISTORY! A topic so important than I am forced to write it in all caps.
I said: I can tell by your clever self applied screen name that you are a person of reason. (That was sarcasm)
So let me hit you with a few facts that you maybe forgot to learn in school:
“In Congress, July 4, 1776The Declaration of Independence
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America, When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
Do you see the two references to God in the opening of the Declaration of Independence? Not Secular, is it?
The Constitution was intentionally left without reference to the church or the Christian faith because the men who wrote it wanted to give the government NO ability to pretend that the church was under the authority of the government, as was the case in England. To a person, the Founders were committed to protecting religious liberty. This conviction was usually based upon the theological principle that humans have a duty to worship God as their consciences dictate. A good illustration of this is George Mason’s 1776 draft of Article XVI of Virginia’s Declaration of Rights. It reads:
Virginia’s Declaration of Rights
“That as Religion, or the Duty which we owe to our divine and omnipotent Creator, and the Manner of discharging it, can be governed only by Reason and Conviction, not by Force or Violence; and therefore that all Men shou’d enjoy the fullest Toleration in the Exercise of Religion, according to the Dictates of Conscience, unpunished and unrestrained by the Magistrate….”
In 1802, Thomas Jefferson penned a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in which he famously suggested that the First Amendment created a “wall of separation between Church & State.” While stupid people on the internet have tried to twist this to mean that the government is supposed to be free from involvement from the Christian faith, the exact opposite is true. The Baptists didn’t want a government like in England which gave itself authority over the church, and Jefferson was assuring them that the laws were designed to protect the church from the government, NOT the other way around.
Finally, From John Adams to Massachusetts Militia, 11 October 1798:
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”John Adams
In a vain attempt to protect the imaginary secular history of the United States from facts of real history, frequent commenter Dude Spewed chimed in and said:
It mentions “Nature’s God”, not any specific mention of Bible God, although I’ve heard some people say it was a hybrid of the two. And yes, it is secular. It says “all men are created equal, they are endowed by their creator”. The key word is “their”. It means that anyone emigrating to America or living there, would still be equal no matter what THEIR religion was. The only way to have freedom of religion is to have freedom from religion, when it comes to governing a country. As soon as you show favoritism to one religion over any other, that’s when people start getting persecuted, arrested and tortured. That’s a brilliant ad-hoc explanation you’ve thought of, though, saying they intentionally didn’t mention Christianity. It’s true, though, of the 7,591 words that compose the Constitution and its amendments, not one of them is “God” or “Christianity” or “Bible.” (Editor’s note- I already answered this above) Secular nation. Secular. Not Christian. And I didn’t forget to learn about this stuff in school, I live in Texas where republican conservative christian politicians warped the cirriculum of my school to make sure I didn’t learn about politics or evolution or science.
And I replied:
Well, my Duderonomy,
At least you know why you don’t know anything about politics or evolution or science. (And I appreciate you distinguishing between evolution and science). Good thing you stumbled onto A Bit of Orange! Soon you’ll know EVERYTHING!
Answer me this: WHO did early Americans’ think was “Nature’s God?” Was there a significant Muslim, Mormon, or Jewish population among the writers and signers of the declaration and constitution? That’s a big NO. All you need to do is look into the CONTEXT of those quotes and you will see that no one on earth would have had to ask. It has NOTHING to do with people immigrating here from pagan nations. I don’t know where you got that idea, but that, my Dude, is the very definition of Ad-Hoc.
Have you noticed that every time you accuse me of a logical fallacy, I can show that it’s actually YOU who has done so? Maybe you should stop making accusations and just ask more questions. I’m just saying. Anyway…
“all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights” (Note: NO mention of immigrants)
“Their” refers to ALL MEN (as in humanity). The issue of the common value of all humans was brought up because one of the chief complaints that the founding fathers had with England was their desire to abolish slavery. They had petitioned King George multiple times to end slavery in America, and he essentially said, “England has slaves, and you are England.” So they said, “Then we are no longer England.”
This has NOTHING to do with immigrants who might show up with other gods, but the fact that the Bible is incompatible with slavery (unlike the Koran, which was the foundation of the Arab/African slave trade that founded the African slave trade in the first place). Christian men opposed an evil practice, which they knew to be evil because they were Christian men. And in case you ever get time to reply to our previous dialogue, think about this as you do: prove to me on Atheism that Slavery is evil. Show me that evolution can be the foundation of a moral system that says all men should be free and no men should be slaves.
But I digress…The fact is, those American Fathers DID mention Christianity and the Bible a LOT, but, similar to how I don’t defend EVERY POSITION I HAVE in EVERY ARTICLE I WRITE, they also didn’t feel the need to clarify what God they were talking about when they as Christian Men writing to other Christian men talked about God. But don’t take MY word for it. Let’s let them speak for themselves:
“Benjamin Franklin, one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence, wrote to Yale president Ezra Stiles, “I think the system of morals and [Jesus’] religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see”
-Works of Benjamin Franklin, John Bigelow, ed., New York: G.P. Putnam’s Sons, 1904, p. 185.
George Washington-1st U.S. President
“While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian.”
–The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence
“Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God … What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be.”
–Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.
1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence
“Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. … Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us.”
–History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Father of the American Revolution
“And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace.”
–As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797.
John Quincy Adams
6th U.S. President
“The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made ‘bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God’ (Isaiah 52:10).”
–Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248.
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and United States Constitution
“I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance equal in power and glory. That the scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God, and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy him…
“I believe that God having elected some of mankind to eternal life, did send his own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind, so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the gospel offer: also by his special grace and spirit, to regenerate, sanctify and enable to persevere in holiness, all who shall be saved; and to procure in consequence of their repentance and faith in himself their justification by virtue of his atonement as the only meritorious cause…
–The Life of Roger Sherman, pp. 272-273.
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution
“The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!”
–The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution
“I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor.”
–Famous American Statesmen, p. 126.
1st Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court and President of the American Bible Society
“In forming and settling my belief relative to the doctrines of Christianity, I adopted no articles from creeds but such only as, on careful examination, I found to be confirmed by the Bible.”
–American Statesman Series, p. 360.
Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution
“It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.”
–The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.
I could continue, but I trust I have proved my point? You let me know what you think.
Bravo! I highly approve.
thank you! And God Bless America!