In reply to: https://abitoforange.com/2018/01/01/the-evidence-for-atheism-is-ignorance/
‘Because, unless you’ve seen every fossil in every museum or still encased in rock, then you can’t possibly claim that unicorns did not exist with anything but arrogance to back you up. Maybe YOU haven’t seen the evidence, but that doesn’t mean it’s not out there.’
Doesn’t that mean that you have to believe they existed or at least consider it until you have looked at every inch of earth possible without finding one? That just sounds exhausting!
Yes, admittedly, digging up every square inch of rock on earth would be exhausting. That’s why, despite all of my big talk, I secretly expect I shall never get around to doing it. But what it actually means is, one cannot declare definitively that something DOES NOT EXIST unless there is some LOGICAL reason. For instance, you CANNOT declare with 100% certainty that there are no dinosaurs living on earth right now. But I can claim with absolute certainty that there are no polygamous bachelors. Thanks for your comment!
I’m pretty sure most atheists say there is a chance, even Dawkins says there is a chance a God exists. What atheists have you spoken to have said there is 100% no god?
This also means that we have to give every God the same chance, which isn’t really beneficial for any specific religion. Also, if there is an incredibly powerful and wise God out there and we have to resort to ‘well, you can’t say that he doesn’t exist’, then that God isn’t doing well at showing himself at all.
I would recommend you surf on over to YouTube.com/abitoforange and check out the Atheism playlist and the Answering Atheism playlist. I think I cover almost anything you have to ask about in those.
But in a quick, rapid fire Q&A:
1. Yes, atheists DO admit that God MAY exist, making them Agnostics, because most of them are not actually stupid enough to BE atheists. I don’t really believe “Atheists” exist.
2. Yes, you should examine all religious claims, including atheism, and all scientific claims, and all marketing claims, and all political slogans with reason and logic according to truth and not according to what you WANT to be true or how you FEEL about it. This means you cannot be intellectually lazy. I will not answer for your choices- you will.
3. I know that if you follow the evidence, reason, and logic, then you will do what a thousand atheists before you have done- men like CS Lewis, Lee Stroble, and Josh McDowell- you will come to know Christianity is true. Then you will have to decide if you will worship the one true God and give your sins to Jesus so you can be clean and forgiven.
God has shown himself in the stars, in math, in every living cell, and in your very ability to ask the question. You already know it to be true. You just need to have the courage to tear down the walls that keep you from the truth. Start with that link, and don’t give up. Keep asking questions.
But people say the exact same thing about their religion, and I am just not accepting their truth either. This makes life very difficult!
Yes, people on both sides of any debate or conversation will say the same silly things. I never pretend that ALL Christians have good reasons for their faith, only that there ARE good reasons for their faith, whether they know them or not. Atheism has no good reasons, and so I get comments ALL OF THE TIME which assert that, because the commenter is ignorant of some facts, I must be wrong. It’s silly, but Atheism really offers little more.
If you are interested in some of the reasons FOR the Christian worldview, we’ve started a helpful little site here: https://abitoforangeacademy.wordpress.com/
I hope it helps. And remember, #JesusLovesYou.
Atheism doesn’t offer anything. It is simply saying I do not believe in the beliefs that are being presented to me. It is like saying not playing football doesn’t offer anything as a sport. It doesn’t, but that is because not playing football isn’t a sport.
This is a popular idea on the internet (Non-Stamp Collecting), but not only is it wrong, but it doesn’t matter. I explain why in detail here: https://youtu.be/3TIsAGMzmLQ
Tsk, orange, you use nonsense like appeals to popularity for your nonsense. “I know that if you follow the evidence, reason, and logic, then you will do what a thousand atheists before you have done- men like CS Lewis, Lee Stroble, and Josh McDowell- you will come to know Christianity is true.” So, since plenty of Christians have become atheists following reason, logic and evidence, you will do what a thousand Christians before you have done. You’ll come to know that atheism is the correct conclusion. Now, when people do look for evidence for this god, look at the logic and look at the reason and don’t agree with you, what was the problem then? Will you try to claim that they didn’t look at it in the “correct” way? Weren’t they “sincere” enough, Linus? And there are athesits because we are sure that all of the gods that humans have invented don’t exist. There’s no evidence for yours or anything it supposedly did, and plenty of evidence for entirely contradictory things happening.
and no, your particular version of your god isn’t in “God has shown himself in the stars, in math, in every living cell, and in your very ability to ask the question.” no more or less than any other god. I can say that Sekhmet or Vishnu, or Allah, is i”n the stars, in math,…..” and you can’t show that I’m wrong any more than you can show that you are right. It’s a shame that you can’t show those gods don’t exist, and your god does. It’s also great to see you try to claim that since atheism isn’t anything more than the conclulsion that there are no gods, this is somehow a failure. Alas for you, us atheists follow all sorts of philosophies, and those *do* provide lots of things. It must make you so unhappy that people can have great lives without agreeing with you.
Poor orange, he has to believe that everyone agrees with him because he needs that external validation. He wants to pretend that he can’t possibly be wrong, so of course everyone has to really agree with him.
Welcome once again Clubby,
I don’t know if you’re just lonely or a glutton for punishment, but here you are again, and entirely wrong again. BUT! Not merely calling me a liar. This is a refreshing change of pace. I honestly didn’t think you had anything else to say. But here you have surprised not just me with your ability to move from merely calling me a liar to playing armchair psychologist as you forcefully ignore or misunderstand everything I said while trying to argue that it proves some character flaw in me, as opposed to doing the hard work of making a case against what I have said. So, a refreshing change of pace, but not one that makes you look any better. I guess you should just take what little victories you an claim here.
To begin with, it is not an appeal to popularity to note that many former atheists have become Christians and Christian apologists. It is a matter of history. For this to be an appeal to authority fallacy, I would have to use this fact of history as the primary evidence in an argument for the truthfulness of Christianity. For instance, I would have to say, “Obviously Christianity has to be true. Look at all of these people who believe it!” Because that’s how the appeal to popularity, or Bandwagon fallacy works.
As for your claim that Christians become atheists, that is simply wrong. People raised in the church? Certainly. But as has been wisely pointed out by John Branyan, any time you listen to an atheist talk about their “former faith” you begin to see that they never WERE Christians. They were ambiguously spiritual, or held some vague religious beliefs which differed almost not at all from any Mormon or Muslim or Deist on earth. None of them were actual CHRISTIANS. I suspect you don’t understand the distinction I am making, and as other atheists have done in the past, you will demand the scientific criteria by which we distinguish between real and pretend Christians. Here’s a hint- it’s in the Bible. Jesus makes this distinction, as do other authors of the New Testament. That you will be forced to ask will show how very little you understand the worldview you think you are attacking with these sad and emotional comments you leave me. Maybe you should be trying to learn what Christianity is before you take a smug and hostile attitude against it?
Now your claim that OTHER gods can be found in nature and whatnot further shows that you don’t understand other religions either. Your ignorance, it seems, knows no bounds. Other gods do not CLAIM to have made the stars. So appealing to the stars to show their existence would be pointless. You are mistaking the fact that people can MAKE a claim with the idea that that claim is logical. But people make absurd claims all of the time. You make quite a few just in this post. For instance, “you can’t show that I’m wrong any more than you can show that you are right.” I HAVE shown atheism to be false and indefensible. MANY times. Just as I have shown some of the MANY reasons we all know that God exists. Your claim here is absurd, and one you don’t even believe. What’s more, you fail to even understand my position on atheism even though I make it clear in a collection of videos and articles. You say, “you try to claim that since atheism isn’t anything more than the conclulsion that there are no gods,” and yet I have explained the Core Tenets of Orthodox Atheism several times, such as here: https://youtu.be/3nPUUbQlji0
You may be interested to know what your self professed religion teaches. I hope you will learn that you are not stupid enough to be an atheist and stop calling yourself one.
And stop pretending that you and the atheist lot are “happy and lead great lives.” You really want to pretend that your continually coming to the blog of a total stranger and leaving ignorant and hateful rants like this is what a healthy and happy person does? I think you know better as much as I do. This is the cry for help from the sad existential void that your stupid religion forces you to live in. You don’t come here to teach me the truth, and you don’t come here because you think your life is happy and full of meaning. You come here because even YOU can see through the thin facade of atheism and you are trying to continue convincing yourself of this lie you know to be a lie. This is why you get angry when I give evidence and reasons for the God you know is there. You can feel the weight of your own sin and you know as well as I do that if you die tonight, you wake up in hell tomorrow. But Jesus died to save wretched sinners like us- including you- so that you can go to sleep knowing that you have eternal life. Here’s what I suggest: Watch that video I linked above. Learn what your religion really is. You will see that it is too stupid for you to believe. Then go read “Mere Christianity” by CS Lewis and “More than a Carpenter” by Josh McDowell, and maybe http://www.thebigmystery.com/
Then instead of listening to the hateful ignorance of other atheists on Youtube, try cracking a bible (or surfing on over to BibleGateway.com) and reading the Gospel of John and the book of Romans. See what Christianity really teaches, see what Jesus did for you, and maybe let him clean you from your many sins. Or, you can spit in his face and go to hell. That is a decision you have to make. Just keep in mind that no one is promised another tomorrow. Choose wisely. And if you come back here, let me again suggest that you try asking good questions. I’m here to help.
Nah, not lonely or a masochist, I just don’t like liars trying to take away people’s ability to make informed decisions like you do. So, when I have time, I’ll point out the false claims when I find them.
It’s rather hard for me to ignore what you say when I’ve addressed it and made cases against what you claimed, so it seems you have to play pretend that I’ve ignored you. That’s pretty typical, but alas for you it doesn’t make my points go away. And you do have quite a few character flaws revealed by your writing, and your need for external validation is one of them. We see that when you insist that as long as anyone is rational or logical or whatever, they simply must agree with you. You cannot show that you are rational, et al but you certainly insist that you are.
“I know that if you follow the evidence, reason, and logic, then you will do what a thousand atheists before you have done- men like CS Lewis, Lee Stroble, and Josh McDowell- you will come to know Christianity is true.” is indeed an appeal to popularity: “The basic idea is that a claim is accepted as being true simply because most people are favorably inclined towards the claim. More formally, the fact that most people have favorable emotions associated with the claim is substituted in place of actual evidence for the claim.” You have claimed that “obviously Christianity has to be true, look at all of these people who now believe in it.” I just had to add the “now” to show your fallacy. It is indeed a fact of history that people have converted, and that doen’t preclude you from using this fact in a fallacy. Why you think it somehow magically does is beyond me.
And it’s no surprise that you have to desperately claim that anyone who has ceased being a Christian never was a Christian. That’s the no true scotsman fallacy. You fail here too, orange. You then commence to bear false witness against those people who were Christians. I do understand the distinction you are trying to make; all theists try the same nonsense. You want to see yourself as the one TrueChristian who has some “truth”. And your fellow Christians also claim that the bible is the criteria on how they determine that they are Christians and you are not.
Now, the bible does say that all baptized people who believe in Jesus Christ as their savior will be able to a lot of magical things; that is the criteria that JC himself gave for how to tell who is a Christian. In that none of you can, then per your bible, there are no Christians, at least not as far as I’ve met who can do “The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: by using my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes in their hands, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover” or anything similar. So, why can’t you do what Jesus gives as the distinction as who are his true followers and who are not? I know Christianity quite well and that is a problem for you.
You show again you are terribly ignorant about other religions. Yes, other gods do claim to have made the universe. Unfortunately for you, I very much like reading about other culture’s religions and their myths. The various religons in ancient Egypt had Atum, Amun or Ptah creating the universe and the stars. The god Ra was a star, the Sun, and this sun was created from the mound that emerged on the created earth (which was idealized as a pyramid). We have Waheguru the Sikh creator god “”Many millions are the fields of creation and galaxies. Many millions are the skies and solar systems. Many millions are divine incarnations. He has unfolded Himself in so many ways. He has expanded His expansion of creation many times. Forever and ever, He is the One, the One Universal Creator.” – Guru Granth Sahib Ji. We have various versions of the Hindu creator god with Vishnu who created the primordial universe and Brahma who created things within it, or Ardhanarishvara creating the primordial universe, and then created Vishnu and Brahma to put things in it, or Brahma and Mahadevi creating the universe. Their religions claim that they made the universe and all that is in it, just like yours, for we do not hear your god making claims any more than the other gods; it is all claims made by humans about their gods. For a believer of those religions, appealing to the stars and creation is what they do about their gods, just like you.
People do make absurd claims all of the time, like you do. You have not shown atheism to be false or indefensible. You may hope you have, but hopes are no more useful than prayers. You have tried to claim your arguments are logical, and they have failed. And dear, typing in caps makes nothing true.
You seem to be getting a bit desperate, orange. Again, we have no reason to believe your claims any more than you believe the claims of other religions. You need to falsely claim that “we” all know that your version of your god exist because you need to make believe everyone agrees with you. And yes, I know your position on atheism; it is built on lies and failure. It’s so sweet when a Christian invents a strawman atheist e.g. your “orthodox atheism” and then attacks it, showing he is helpless against the real thing. Alas, no matter how much you lie, atheism is not a religion. It’s simply the conclusion that there are no gods.
Well, orange, since I don’t leave “ignorant and hateful rants” on your public comments section, you’ve already failed in your false claim that atheists aren’t happy and don’t lead great lives. A happy person leading a great life can come to your blog and point out how terribly ignorant you are and how you try to lie to others. And sorry, dear, no “existential void” at all. I do come here in hopes that you might stop trying to lie to people, but I know you probably can’t. I certainly do come here because my life is happy and full of meaning and I find meaning in standing up to people who deal in ignorance and fear like you. I do get disgusted with people like you.
Oh the “weight of my own sins”. Trying to threaten an atheist with something that they don’t believe in doesn’t work very well. Even Christians don’t agree on sin, so why would I care about something that even believers can’t agree on or convince each other of? And nope, no hell for me, but keep believing in your sadistic fantasies. One of the issues with Christianity I have is why should I want someone to die for me? Especially when I’ve done nothing wrong, and this god of yours invented the game in the first place? Why need a blood sacrifice to make itself happy about people it made to do what they do?
I’ve read Mere Christianity. My favorite part is where Lewis encourages believers to lie to non-believers by covering up the fractured nature of Christianity so they won’t realize how screwed up it is. I’ve already read Josh McDowell and find him to be incompetent, e.g. his argument that no one would die for a lie. Well, the people at Jonestown did, the Heaven’s Gate people did. Muslims did. He also fails in his trilemma, because he forgot that JC can be a legend. I’ve also seen “big mystery” and again it’s nothing new, and one of the worst apologetics I’ve seen in a while with its “we’ll insist that the universe is incomplete and then make up a answer for our baseless question by insisting there is something else with no evidence” nonsense.
I’ve read the bible twice, once entirely as a Christian and once as not. I’ve read the Gospel of John and the others and marveled at how contradictory they are. John doesn’t have the one half-decent scene in the bible, the weeping in Gesthemane. I’ve read Romans too, and it’s great to see how much of it Christians like you ignore. You are all about the baseless claim that somehow everyone can see your god in the universe, and the hatred towards homosexuals, but you forget where it says not to lie for your god even if you think it’s a good idea, that this god controls everyone, and Paul does quite a job of contradicting things JC supposedly said, including telling people that he is sure that the end times are soon for him, and JC says not to believe anyone who says that the time is at hand, and saying that there is one commandment not the two that JC said that all of the others were wrapped up in, and saying that people will be justified by this god’s grace/faith/blood, not by their words as JC supposedly said, among other things. You might be interested in this link, though I’m sure you’ll insist that this person isn’t a Christian: http://www.voiceofjesus.org/paulvsjesus.html Having been a Christian, I know what Christianity really teaches, and I know that sects of Christianity don’t agree with each other. And since JC didn’t exist, at least not as Christians like you claim, he didn’t do a thing for me. You of course return to threats about hell. Since you can’t even show your god exists, why would I believe in magical places?
I don’t do much on youtube, so sorry, your new false assumption fails too. There are some good videos there, one I like very much are those from potholer54. He has experiments that creationists can do that will show their claims to be wrong https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5ElhX38w3Q . It’s grand fun to ask a creationist to do the experiments and then never hear from them again. As for asking good questions, I always do. You just don’t like them and find you can’t answer them.
No one is promised another tomorrow, and this is a problem for Christians since your god promises to take extraspecial care of you. . This is why lies and nonsense need to be stood against today.
Clubby is back, and you will see why her comments are ulcer inducing. My instinct is to merely delete and go on with my day, but as I am occasionally accused of creating a fictional straw-man version of what atheists are like (aka “Boogie-man atheists”, etc.), I figured this was an excellent opportunity to see from the atheist’s own mouth (or keyboard) what they are really like. It’s a pile of emotional ranting, straw man arguments, childish name calling, and the typical, boring atheist tripe.
But so you can see that I am not making this stuff up, here she is, completely unedited this time, so you can see what I mean when I describe atheists. I don’t make this stuff up you know, and when you don’t believe me, it hurts my feelings.
Here is my argument: Just say no to drugs.
PS: If anyone can find in the preceding rant (or any other by the same author) an actual argument which is not based on flagrant logical fallacies, emotional name calling, or unsubstantiated blanket assertions- an actual argument proving any part of her case or disproving any part of mine- I will devote an entire post to replying to it. But I’ll bet even money that no one will even try.
PPS: Not you Clubby. You clearly don’t understand what it means to make an argument. Let’s see if anyone else thinks you’ve said something of substance.
PPPS: If you read my previous comment, you will see that I already replied to everything she says here, and in response she has merely said the same things again. So, if you want to see this dull, uninspired nonsense debunked and replied to, just scroll up. I’ve already done it.
The count thus far:
Deleted comments full of name calling and profanity- 3
Comments which show Clubby has ever offered me an actual argument- 0