I had an atheist write in to tell me that “Atheism requires no faith and is not a worldview.” He argued that an atheist is a person who believes that the claim that there IS a God is “unsupported by good evidence.”
Now, I think I have clearly explained what the tenets of orthodox Atheism are in several videos and blog posts. Clearly it is a worldview. In fact, I call it a religion. But on a deeper level, this person was mistaken. Atheism DOES require faith.
For instance, even on his own definition, the atheist has to believe- that is, have faith in– the idea that there is no evidence proving God’s existence. I mean, if you don’t put your faith in THAT proposition, why would you call yourself an atheist? And once you decide something so foundation as to reject the existence of God, you DO have a worldview. That you can’t see it doesn’t make it go away.
Consider this:
- Is it POSSIBLE that this person can KNOW that theism is “unsupported by good evidence”?
- Is it possible that he knows enough to claim with certainty that theism is not supported by good evidence?
- Is it even possible that he can say he knows all of the proposed or existing or possible evidence for God’s existence, and then be able to logically reject all of it as insufficient with justifiable cause?
- Could he ever prove, even to himself, that there IS NO GOOD EVIDENCE for God’s existence? None in all the universe? None in all of human history? None in existence now but simply absent from the conversations he’s had on FaceBook?
Obviously not. If he believes this claim, it is believed on blind faith, not on evidence.
This person MEANS to say he has not heard any evidence he accepts as convincing, but that is a VERY different claim. It is the difference between someone claiming “THERE IS NO EVIDENCE for a ROUND EARTH!” or that person saying “I have never heard anything I FEEL is convincing evidence for a round earth!”
This Atheist, like ALL atheists, must take on BLIND FAITH the assertion that there isn’t sufficient evidence for the existence of God. He CANNOT claim it as a fact to be known nor as something observed or quantified. Atheism is indefensible. There is not a SINGLE argument which can be made in its favor. This is why Atheist must resort to rejecting ALL of the evidence and arguments FOR God’s existence. However, the claim that THERE IS NO SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE for God’s existence is a universal claim that NONE of them can ever make.
It would be like claiming there is NO EVIDENCE that an elephant has ever painted a picture. You may DOUBT that elephants can do such a thing, or that they would ever even want to. But you cannot say with CONFIDENCE that in all the jungles, circuses and zoos of the world that NOT ONE elephant has ever painted a picture and that NO EVIDENCE exists of such a painting. You could never PROVE conclusively that nowhere in the world is there evidence of a painting being made by an elephant. There is no scientific test nor mathematical theorem which would be used to argue for that position conclusively. You would have to make that claim on pure faith.
And then someone like me would come along and show you this.
(That’s an elephant painting a self portrait.)
At which point, if you’re like the Atheists, you loudly insist that this is fake, offer no evidence that it is fake, and insist that you don’t HAVE the burden of proof and so you don’t HAVE to give reasons why you think it’s a fake! It’s ME who has to prove that this is a REAL elephant making a REAL painting! Somehow you get to simply reject photographic evidence with a hand waving dismissal, because, reasons.
And somehow you will continue to tell people that there is NO EVIDENCE for the existence of painting elephants.
In conclusion, I already know that some atheist is going to write in and tell me that Atheism is more like claiming that there is no evidence for an elephant having flown a motorcycle to the moon. He will not explain WHY this metaphor works. He will just assert it blindly as something which he hopes we will all agree could never happen, thus reflecting his feeling that God’s existence is impossible. But when asked why God’s existence is as impossible as an elephant flying to the moon on a motorcycle, he will wave his hand and dismiss the question, insisting that it is ME who has to do the proving. Because, you know. Reasons.
Want to learn more? I suggest you surf on over to Youtube.com/ABITOFORANGE
and check out the ATHEISM playlist!
#JesusLovesYou
A Bit of Orange 
Huston, we have a problem.
Again.
A conceptual confusion, based on divergent paradigms, which causes conformational biases, which causes flawed reasoning, which leads to erroneous conclusions. This is common and correctable to anyone how cares if their version of reality is based on reliable mechanism for determining the most probable outcomes to questions of our shared reality. Too deep? Sorry for my condescending attitude but really your just making shit up to fit your worldview.
This is becoming tiresome and painful to watch. Perfectly normal, intelligent people trying to describe their God and why they believe. Their religion is obviously important to them yet most respond as if they had never considered the question. When voicing their reasoning and see where logic is taking them they begin to struggle. At some point the reasoning boils down to faith. To justify belief in the least probable outcome requires faith.
Now the painful part begins. Special pleadings, arguments from ignorance, incredulity, all sorts of mental gymnastics. Then retrenchment followed by another attempt to tap dance around and avoid simple true-false, yes-no questions like what constitutes evidence or morality. Too many people come to a place where they will jettison reason and substitute it with faith. Thus Myrmidons are manifested. Obedient, unquestioning and potentially lethal. This world view is primitive at it’s core. No more, no less. No special pleading please.
P.s. atheism has two categories. Hard and Soft. Hard are Anti-theists like myself that reject the god claims as unsupportable and view religion as an impediment to humanity’s (our species) long term survival or a similar variant. Soft atheism, is any type of atheism where a person does not believe in the existence of any deities but does not explicitly assert that there are none. None of this speaks to any concept of faith familiar to me. Faith and Atheism are not mirrored images of each other. Antonyms of faith are disbelief, distrust, doubt, misgiving, skepticism, suspicion. There’s simply no why that faith, as applied to religion, has any correlation with atheism.
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YOU, my friend, are one of the hard working professional atheists! This is a GREAT page of ambiguous atheistic feedback with no direct correlation to my post.
I’d use this as a monologue for a theater audition.
But,
1. This has no direct correlation to my post, giving me no indication that you actually read it.
2. Your definitions of atheism are somewhere between wrong and useless. I made a video explaining why: https://youtu.be/3TIsAGMzmLQ
Check it out, enjoy, and thanks for copy and pasting your comments here!
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That’s like a cat trying to define a dog. Not being one, you simply don’t know. You make up descriptions that fill your need to feel good about yourself and your chosen religion.
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So, on your logic, you can’t say what a cat is, since you are not one. I’m also not a Vegetarian. I suppose I can’t ever know what THOSE people are all about either, huh?
Maybe they are carrots.
One thing I know I am is sarcastic, but I expect I have made my point. If I am wrong about Atheism, explain how, but this argument of yours is no good.
I do appreciate the fact that your picture has a cat in it…. unless you are the cat in the picture. In which case my argument is ALSO a bad argument.
DANG IT! the internet is too hard. I’m going back to crayons.
Thanks for stopping by, Archer’s Den.
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for a definition, quoting American Atheists (https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/about-atheism/):
“Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.”
unfortunately for their assertion, “lack of belief” is actually a belief that there is nothing (in that domain) to believe. that their belief system is so one-legged reveals a lot about the dogmatism any person attempting to disagree with them would be facing.
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Greetings Austux42!
Thank you for sharing this definition. And I agree with your comment. Once again, they claim Atheism is not a religion, but it ends up being full of a particular kind of Orthodox Dogmatic Tenets just the same. Well said my friend!
I’ve discussed this definition in a lot of articles and with a lot of visitors to the old blog here. First, it is simply wrong. However, it doesn’t even matter, because when you start with this definition, you find that it collapses under its own weight and ends up with two categories, which are what we have traditionally called “Atheism” or “Agnosticism.”
They say, “I simply lack belief in God.” But then there is the immediate question, “Why?”
the lack of belief MUST be due to one of only two possible reasons:
1. They are confident in the absence of God (They have intellectually sound and logical reasons to know God does not exist)- We’ve traditionally called these people “Atheists.”
2. They are NOT confident in the absence of God (And at the same time are not confident in the existence of God)- We call these people “Agnostics”
And when you look into what the burden of proof is for the first group, you find that the people who fall into the first category cannot exist, because their burden of proof is SO ABSURD, that defending their position literally means arguing that the NECESSARY requirements for the existence of the universe is LITERALLY impossible. I discuss that in this video if you’re interested: https://youtu.be/KHQoZVJ32G4
thanks for stopping by and sharing what you know!
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Then please list the evidence you have that unequivocally demonstrates that :
a) there is a god, &
b) that this god is the one you worship.
Thanks.
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Hmmm… does this question carry order and meaning? If you could prove to me that it does, I think I could answer it.
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I’m practice, you can prove an idea beyond reasonable doubt.
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Naturally, essiep, and well said. But what SOME people consider “Reasonable” doubt is far from reasonable. Just check the comments under anything I’ve ever posted.
thanks!
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And because you said it, that makes it true. This is your argument?
Speaking only of the above post, you spend all kinds of time thinking you are making rational statements while not giving a shred of evidence that anything you say is rational. Then, you claim you have proven something because someone else cannot give a rational reply to your irrationality.
That works for you! Good for you. Everyone else can see through your little game. Assert nothing, and cry foul when someone else asserts nothing by your standards. Insanity by any other name is still insanity. But you’ll never understand that.
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Hmm… let’s see. Self-aggrandizing pseudonym… using a question in place of an argument… demanding evidence for things which are self-evidently logical… name calling in place of making an argument… sarcasm…
BINGO!
Oh, wait, I mean, ATHEIST!
What I DO understand, Undercooked Diety, is that you have said nothing of substance- like, we BOTH know that you have done nothing to show that I am wrong about anything here. But I know what you’re getting at. Let me save you some time with a little cut and paste phrase I find that internet atheists can use to save a lot of time and effort (And I don’t even demand royalties when you use it). It goes like this: “I don’t understand your position, but you are wrong and I hate you.”
Just copy and paste that baby around the internet and you will save HOURS!
You’re welcome.
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Spot on. I was always told hand-held lighters blowing up in one’s hand was an urban myth – until I tried lighting my pipe (years ago) in my car and the dang lighter blew up in my hand. I became a believer of the “myth” at that point. The atheist has lighters blowing up in his hand every day, yet refuses to admit he even smokes. Crazy stuff.
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Well said.
Thanks for your comment!
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Reblogged this on The Recovering Legalist and commented:
I stumbled across this blog and thought this post was totally worth sharing, especially right after my post about “evidence.” Give the author a shout-out and let him know I said “hello.”
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Thanks Anthony, and hello back to you!
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Well said. I love your painting elephant. I sometimes like to say there is absolutely no evidence that hairless apes are talking to one another using strange symbols passed across the world by an invisible wi/fi signal….. and yet here we are.
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Thanks.
Though, if you’re including me in that description of hairless apes, I must confess that I am actually quite hairy. I’m no wookie, but I’ll do.
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LOL! Well, keep doing what you do. You have some fans out here who appreciate it.
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Thanks! I sincerely appreciate it.
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Nice strawman you are fighting there.
You make the claim atheism is a religion. It is not. It is a lack of believing in an imaginary friend.
“Is it POSSIBLE that this person can KNOW that theism is “unsupported by good evidence”?”
Yes. Your average atheist has done a lot of research, gone through many years of questioning the absurdities they have been told, only to finally understand religion is a lie. A con. An afterlife insurance policy they never actually have to deliver on.
“Is it possible that he knows enough to claim with certainty that theism is not supported by good evidence?”
Again, yes. Your magic book is proof only that fallible individuals with a con to maintain, wrote a book. Nothing more.
“Is it even possible that he can say he knows all of the proposed or existing or possible evidence for God’s existence, and then be able to logically reject all of it as insufficient with justifiable cause?”
I repeat. Your magic book is proof only that fallible individuals with a con to maintain, wrote a book. Nothing more.
“Could he ever prove, even to himself, that there IS NO GOOD EVIDENCE for God’s existence? None in all the universe? None in all of human history? None in existence now but simply absent from the conversations he’s had on FaceBook?”
Maybe you could show some evidence that your god actually exists. I’ll wait. But won’t be holding my breath.
The argument from elephants can do self portraits? What sort of buffoon are you?
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Greetings Shelly!
Claiming Atheism is a religion is NOT a strawman. Maybe you simply don’t know the tenets of your own faith. Lucky for you I’ve made several great videos about it! Here’s one now!
Of course, maybe you’re just using the word “Atheism” incorrectly. Don’t feel bad if this is you. Lots of people do this.
Here’s a video I made showing why:
You seem to have listed a bunch of unsubstantiated blanket assertions which, naturally, fit within the tenets of your own religion and the foolishness which must follow, but it also shows a terrible lack of understanding of what the Bible is and what it teaches. Let’s cut to the most important parts:
Proof that God exists? Well, on one hand you don’t need it. You already know that the God of the Bible is not only real but also your creator and judge. But if you need to see that more clearly, then stop by
and see how this question has been answered over and over for thousands of years.
And lastly, you ask “What sort of buffoon are you?”
That is a very good question. How many kinds are there?
Anyway, thanks for writing in!
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lacking belief in something is believing that there is nothing to believe (in that domain), which is an act requiring faith.
now take a step back and ask yourself why you can believe anything. at all.
if you believe that this universe has no purpose (which is a necessary prerequisite for believing that there is nothing to believe), then that is only possible if you believe that it (and everything in it) happened accidentally (randomly), for no particular reason.
this necessarily includes your own thoughts, conclusions and beliefs, which makes those thoughts, conclusions and beliefs undependable.
are your thoughts, conclusions and beliefs undependable?
if so (or if not), then how would you know?
that you can believe anything — including that there is nothing to believe — is irrefutable evidence that Atheism is a false belief.
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Clearly it is a worldview
Fair enough. Can you tell me what content athesim has.
I look forward to your answer.
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Greetings JZ!
I’ve done this several times over on the old YouTube channel. Enjoy!
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Could you just list your thoughts here, please? I’m not interested in a video.
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I would love to, but I don’t have the time to write out things I already made into a video.
Sorry JZ. This is more of a hobby than anything else, and I gots work to do.
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Fair enough. I guess it wasn’t that important…. or convincing.
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Thanks John. It’s always my pleasure to disappoint you with mediocrity.
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Let me know when you have something, OK.
And I’ll even make it easy for you: Name just one piece of content that comes from a-theism.
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Sorry John, I don’t remember what this is in regards to, but chances are I have already answered it in the Answering Atheism Playlist. Check it out here:
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No, I would like you to simply list your points here, in writing.
Obviously, that’s too hard. Okay…
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Harder than mashing PLAY on a youtube video, where in I list the points I am making.
I don’t work for you, John. Don’t be this lazy. Go watch a video.
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No, I don’t want to wade through a video. You wrote a post, in words, please use them, written words, to list your points.
If that is simply too hard , then fine. Clearly you don’t have any points worth jotting down.
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OR… you’re too lazy to watch a video.
Really? WADE through a video? Like its hard to press PLAY and then pay attention for a few minutes?
You must be a millennial.
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Didn’t you write a script. You could paste that here.
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I can’t help but ask … why do you feel the need to attack atheism if it is “indefensible”?
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Greetings, Nan! In the words of Jesus, “You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.”
People have to be talked out of horrible and stupid things all of the time, like Crack Cocaine, bell bottoms, suicide, and the purchase of movies staring Adam Sandler. In each case, there is no defense for the poor choice which is rational, but it is the loving thing to talk your friend out of it. So as long as people make the horrible and self destructive choice to embrace atheism, people like me will choose to do the loving thing and talk them out of it.
thanks for your question!
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How is atheism self-destructive? When you die, there can only be two choices: 1) You stay dead 2) You continue to live.
If you stay dead, there is no further choice. If you stay alive, you are faced with a million possibilities. Obviously there are too many to go into, but only 1 of those possibilities is going to a place called heaven. So what are your odds. 1 in 2 that you will continue to live, then 1 in 1000000 that you will end up where you have faith you are going. Not very good odds, I would say.
Kind of like a lottery, with tje odds stacked against you. I do wish you luck. You are going to need it.
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That’s a good question! See… oh, you didn’t actually want an answer, huh? Just asking a question as a lead in?
I see. That’s fine. I didn’t want to answer any questions anyway.
But… I’m here so why not?
Atheism is self destructive because it’s a pile of lies and self deception which forces one to deny, among other things, objective morality, purpose, a unique place for the human race, a reason to live, a cause for existence, an origin for the human mind, truth, justice, logic, observational science, and the obvious fact that complexity and language only comes from a mind.
Just as one easy and obvious answer in the form of a question: What reason does an atheist have to not murder, or commit suicide, or rape or do ALL of the drugs and eat live kittens? An atheist has no reason to DO or NOT do ANYTHING. Their worldview is meaningless and without purpose, morals, or direction. You don’t get more self-destructive than that.
And what is this million possibilities nonsense? Maybe you’re a little OVER cooked? Eh? (That’s a clever reference to your pseudonym) Your hypothetical options are:
1. Oblivion, 2. Reincarnation, 3. Heaven, 4. Hell
So… 999,996 short of your estimation, but I will assume that you are rounding up. WAY up.
And the only two of these which are actual are heaven and hell- heaven reserved for those who have been forgiven through Jesus Christ, and Hell for those who have chosen to reject forgiveness through Jesus Christ.
And I have been forgiven through Jesus Christ, and so I don’t need luck. You need something far better than good luck. I suggest you give Jesus a try.
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Let’s see, if I have anything to be forgiven for, it is remaining a christian as long as I did, even when there was no evidence to do so. For that I do ask forgiveness, of myself, and I also grant it.
Of my million possibilities, all you can see are 4? Not very many options there. How about Paradise? Valhalla? Nirvana? just to mention 3 of the earth-based destinations. And then there are all the ones from other planetary bases besides the earth. And from other galaxies. Other universes.
You mention reincarnation. I wonder what you mean by that? Can dead beings be reborn as other species, or just as humans? What what be the purpose of reincarnation in your cosmology? Just so happens I have experience with reincarnation–from my start as a one-celled being many billions of years ago I have lived millions of lives as members of millions of different species here on earth. Those are the ones I can remember during this present reincarnation. And this is just one level out of millions of levels of life. The only thing I joked about was there being a mere million possibilities after death. There are more possibilities for life than there are grains of sand in this universe. Humankind cannot count that high. And in all those possibilities, not one god at all. Just living beings, learning how best to live in their present surroundings.
Now we come to morality, but not your brand. Your morality is what I call responsibility, to self, and to life.You see, self and life are the same thing. All living beings are connected, because they all have life. Every being is important to me, and generally to most atheists, which is not something any theist can say. Only believers and potential believers are important to you. You are the chosen, the ones that will go to heaven when your leader returns next to earth. The rest will go to hell. Yeah, certainly you care about others, but only if you can make them believe like you do. But only guilty people would believe that. We who are not guilty have no need of redemption.
There is more I could say, but I figure you should be asleep right now. I hope you took the time to say your prayers.
Maybe we will talk at each other again, if you care to. Your god knows we will never talk to each other. I am not an insider…
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First Steven (Can I call you Steven?), You were never a Christian. You may have been forced to attend a church, but you were never a Christian.
And you are not much a philosopher, as this argument to defend your use of a MILLION options is missing the point rather badly.
But let me draw your attention back to the point- Atheism is a worldview without purpose, meaning, value, destiny, and distinctions.
You say “Every being is important to me, and generally to most atheists, which is not something any theist can say.” And I cannot imagine that you are truly stupid enough to think you mean this.
You REALLY intend to tell me that you have survey data which you trust from enough atheists and theists alike that you can state as a fact that Every being is important to most atheists? And also somehow you have the scientific data to state as a FACT that NO THEIST can say they care for other people? This is idiotic and I think you know that.
And, just curious… You said “Every being is important to me” but you didn’t say “Human” being, of even “Living” being…by “being” do you include things like ferns, bacteria, and termites? Because, admittedly, I have little love for termites and bacteria. I mean, I find them FASCINATING, but, I can’t sincerely say I LOVE them.
And neither can you.
YOU- if you were an atheist (you are not)- would never claim to love ANYTHING or ANYONE. Love is a choice. If atheism were true, then you could no more CHOOSE to love than your toaster can CHOOSE to make your pop tarts a certain level of dark. Your mind is your brain and your brain is a collection of atoms in a particular arrangement. Atoms cannot choose, molecules cannot choose, cells cannot choose, and so where do you get this absurd notion that YOU can choose? Or even that YOU are a single entity? You are a machine controlled by DNA- you are an atheist because your brain is arranged in the state which we describe with the name “Atheist” and not because you CHOSE to reject God, for how can a pile of matter choose ANYTHING? It cannot. You may as well claim that a pile of sand is rooting for a particular football team.
And if you COULD choose, why SHOULD you choose to love your neighbor instead of choosing to kill and eat him? Atheism gives you no reason- no OUGHT by which to decide. You know that as well as I do. This notion that Atheists can be GOOD PEOPLE is insane because you are claiming that “In a world with NO good and evil, no right and wrong, atheists are good people who choose to do right and not to do wrong.” It’s absurd! And I think you are smart enough to understand that.
But this is why I say you are not an atheist. No one is really THAT stupid. The things you would be forced to believe is ABSURD, and so you are, just as any in the world, an atheist in name only.
I wrote a detailed article about your religion here: https://abitoforange.com/2016/06/14/the-15-core-tenants-of-orthodox-atheism/
I think you will see I am right and that you are not REALLY claiming to be an atheist. You probably mean to say you are an Agnostic.
So why the facade? It’s so you can say asinine things you know to be false, like claiming to care for ALL BEINGS, and like claiming to be “not guilty”. You know your guilt more than anyone else. There are things you have done and said which you would be HORRIFIED if they could be broadcast to the world. You would feel an overwhelming sense of shame- because you SHOULD. And you know that. Pretending God isn’t there hasn’t erased it, its only given you a small, terrible lie to hide behind. And yet, here you are. Coming to the blog of a Christian apologist to dialogue. Why would you do that? You’re not even trying to convince me that I’m wrong, so you’re not on some merciful mission of unevangelism.
Do you know why you are here, having this conversation?
I’ve wondered that for years, as “atheists” come here ALL THE TIME, and I have finally figured it out. Why spend your fleeting moments between now and oblivion talking to me if you know I’m a fool? You will be angry at me for saying so at first, but I hope someday you can think about it with clarity as I think you will see I am right.
You are here because you want to sin without guilt and you want to die without the fear of hell- but the problem is you KNOW you are a sinner, and you know as well as I do that if you die tonight you will wake up in hell tomorrow. So you turned to atheism, hoping you could fool yourself into believing it, but it is SO STUPID that you can’t believe it. You know you are a sinner, You carry that guilt. Atheism as failed you. It’s absurd in the highest degree. But you feel that, maybe if you can get a Christian to say HE doubts God is there, then maybe you can convince yourself.
If YOU could convince YOU that atheism were true, then I would never hear from you.
So once again, I say STOP holding onto this paper thin lie which you KNOW to be absurd, and take an honest look into the faith you think you once had and discover for the first time what it really is. What it is is the story of how God made you special and loves you very much, but he loves you too much to leave you that way. He paid the price to make you clean and give you eternal life, but if you choose to reject Him and His love and his free gift of salvation, then He respects your choice and you will rot in your sin forever, until there is nothing left of you. The cure is free, and the disease is killing you. Pretending you are healthy only leads to death. Once again, let me encourage you to admit the truth and turn to Jesus Christ. He died and rose again so you could be forgiven and free.
I have a short series which explains the gospel. I made it for you. It may be of help to you on your journey. Let me know if I can be of any more help.
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Damn! Nailed him with that ‘No True Scotsman…. uh, Christian’, argument. Well, I am convinced now. 😳
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Uh… YOU are a cat (or a person holding a cat. I’m still not sure, but you are welcome either way).
I am sarcastic. We each need to know our roles here.
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So why didn ‘t you print my reply to you? I took the time to write it, the least you could do is allow your readership to judge it for themselves. Or don’t you have the guts?
You make me laugh. You think you have an answer for everything, but you don’t have an intelligent answer for anything. Let’s see if I can goad you into being honest…
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Because, like this little gem, your reply was immature emotional nonsense which wasn’t worth the time. I deleted it. If you want to have a real conversation, then ask good questions or make a point. If you’re just going to be an emotional troll, I won’t bother.
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So hownold does one have to be to recognize maturity?
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I suspect that would depend on the individual. Maturity, like wisdom, is not an age, though it often takes years to achieve, and like wisdom, is not guaranteed by time.
Dang, that sounded like, fortune cookie level smart just then. Quote, me, copyright me.
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